NBC’s Vance Tells Jen Psaki New Trump Defendant ‘Has No Choice But To Flip’ — ‘Final Nail’ In Trump’s Coffin
NBC News analyst Joyce Vance told MSNBC host and former White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki that the newest defendant in the classified docs case has “no choice but to flip” on ex-President Donald Trump.
News broke Thursday afternoon that Special Counsel Jack Smith has filed three additional charges against Trump in a new filing that also added a defendant, Carlos De Oliveira, “to the obstruction conspiracy that was charged” in the original indictment. It also charged Trump, De Oliveira, and Walt Nauta “with two new obstruction counts… based on allegations that the defendants attempted to delete surveillance video footage at The Mar-a-Lago Club in the summer of 2022.”
It also charges De Oliveira “with false statements and representations in a voluntary interview with the FBI on January 13, 2023.”
On Thursday night’s edition of MSNBC’s All In with Chris Hayes, Vance and Harry Litman joined Psaki to discuss the developments, and they all agreed a flip is the desired outcome. Vance called De Oliviera’s cooperation a certainty, and predicted it would be the “final nail in the coffin” for Trump:
JEN PSAKI: What stuck out to you as you read through it.
HARRY LITMAN: The superseding indictment, I would say two things stuck out to me. One, it’s a whole new scheme with Nauta and De Oliveira and it’s very ham-handed. They really look like, you know, two bit criminals. And, as opposed to anything, you know, more sophisticated. That’s one.
But two, the really big thing is De Oliveira was just tailor-made to be a cooperating witness. He has everything to lose. They came at him hard. And I think what it shows is Jack Smith does not bluff because there are some downsides for him for, to bringing it now. And I think they came to him and said, look, we’ve got you with all these false statements. We’ve got you making these other obstructive acts, you better cooperate. And if you say, no, we’re bringing charges and we’re bringing them quickly. And he said no, and they’re bringing them quickly. He is someone who it’s hard to understand why he wouldn’t be cooperating against both Nauta and Trump.
JEN PSAKI: And he has so much to lose here. I mean, Joyce, what are your thoughts on that? I mean, clearly they would want him to flip. Do you think he’s a likely candidate for that? And what should we be watching for in that regard?
JOYCE VANCE: So I think Harry’s dead on the money here. And your question points that out, Jen. This Jen, this is a defendant who has almost no choice but to flip. He’s looking at charges that have 20-year maximums, even though that’s not the real-world sentencing. He’s looking at spending a big chunk of time in prison if he goes forward. And it’s the final charge against him, this charge where he goes in and talks to agents, they actually visit him in his home. They tell him that he’s free to end the interview at any point in time. And then he just lies to them in a bald-faced manner about when the boxes and the items from Washington first come down to Mar a Lago.
So they have him dead to center if he does not cooperate. And what did they get if he does cooperate? He is putting Trump front and center in this scheme to obstruct. They have Trump wanting to figure out if the videos can be erased. This is so important in showing that this was not an innocuous effort by the former president to hold on to trophies or souvenirs from his time in office, but that he in fact knew that what he was doing was wrong. And so if they can obtain de Oliveira’s cooperation, that’s probably the final nail in the coffin on this one.
JEN PSAKI: Was very mob-like.
Watch above via MSNBC’s All In with Chris Hayes.
